Home Forums CCC Forum Single Stage vs Base/Clear

This topic contains 23 replies, has 10 voices, and was last updated by  Mr. Kool 3 days, 6 hours ago.

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  • #54863

    CadillacRob86
    Participant

    Guys, I’ve never painted a car, but I’ll be painting my 56 Cadillac in my garage.

    Should I do single stage or base coat clear coat?  I’ve attached a picture of the color I want, a solid, light yellow.

     

    My understanding is base coat clear coat doesn’t last as long unless it’s baked in a cure room.  Some say single stage dulls faster, but it can be polished out.

     

    I’ve also read about putting a clear coat over the single stage.  Thanks for any help.

     

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    #54875

    Torchie
    Participant

    Ok.

    When I worked in the body shops we had Lacquer or enamel We never put clear coat over anything. Times have changed.

    Since you are shooting what appears to be a solid non metallic color single stage would be the easiest. If you were using a metallic paint then I would say BC-CC as it gives you a chance to get the color/metallic base right before covering it with clear

    I usually shoot single stage enamel on my projects now as to me once it is colored sanded and buffed it gives a look closest to old time lacquer.(back in the day we never color sanded and buffed enamel. That was it selling point. Shoot it and be done.) More of a softer shine,as it were.

    When you shoot SS you should lay it on as wet as you can. To many people spray it too dry and think that they can sand it out and polish it to make it shine.

    I just shot some BC-CC on a friends newer car. It was not baked and it will hold up just fine even in our harsh Northern Michigan winters.

    I would not CC over single stage. Not formulated for it and you may have adhesion issues. Plus it is a waste of money as Paint products are very costly these days.

    Your 56 would have been Lacquer originally.

    Both of these pics show single stage paint that has NOT been sanded and buffed. This is how it should look when dry. The firewall shot is hard to see how wet it looks,  but you can see reflections in the outboard engine covers.

    Good luck and have fun with it. I know many a seasoned builder that would never think to paint a car. It’s not magic and you will have a great sense of accomplishment.  Just ask Ian. He painted his 37 Chevy custom truck in his garage and it looks great.

    Torchie

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    #54878

    Larry Pointer
    Participant

    Great advice from Torchie!  As one who was stuck in the lacquer days, I had to be dragged whining and protesting into the HVLP modern days of paints that can kill you, instead of a lacquer buzz, or an enamel headache.  I chose single stage because, well several unreasonable grouchy old man reasons.

    Here in Montana and Wyoming I’ve seen too many stock and also repainted cars with clear coat that peel like snake skin after a few short, or some quite long, periods.  To be fair (though it pains me) many garage queens of  our land of long winter  have kept their shiny skins intact quite well.

    Yes, reading the instructions and following proper technique and timing requirements should give “guaranteed” results.  But for me, that was the rub.  I was either working out in the driveway…when parts were too big for my enclosed spaces, and/or weather, dust, flying insects, and floating plant parts gave me a break…or in said enclosed spaces with my limited human capabilities (attention deficit, calls to do something more pressing from elsewhere, skill limitations, etc).  I just didn’t trust myself to spray, clean up before pot life or paint kicking caught me flat-footed, mix the next stage, and begin spraying before the “window” had passed.

    By spraying single stage, I could concentrate on the single task at hand.  And know I could manage the process and sequence.  And see what I achieved was just what I was going to get.  Done.

    OK, the paint isn’t as “wet” looking as a clear coat can deliver.  But then (throwing in the “traditional” argument), it can look more “old school”.

    I still  miss my lacquer.  On the other hand, I’m really fascinated with the water-based paint developments for a brave new, painter-friendly and forgiving (not to mention REQUIRED) future in auto body painting.  As of now, painters still are finishing off those with clear coat, so we haven’t crossed that threshhold into the brave new future quite yet.  But we all are watching our California painters in rapt attention.  Those, and Charlie Hutton.

    yer CCC Forrest Gump

    #54879

    Torchie
    Participant

    Larry Makes valid points as well about re coating times .

    If you have the time to shoot it all at once then that is no problem. With a SS non metallic color like that yellow you could get away with panel spraying it. In other words each part separately as time allows. The advantage of this is that you can do many of the parts off the car as well as not having to deal with arm fatigue (which is a very real thing) if you are not used to holding a spray gun full of paint in your hand with your arm extended over that air craft carrier sized Caddy hood and roof…..:)

    For home painters Lacquer was always the most forgiving but the cost involved with it now(if you can get it) are out of sight.

    One last piece of unasked for advice. When mixing your enamel paint there will be ratios for Color -reducer-hardner on the can label. The only one that I pay strict attention to is the Color to hardner ratio. I always base the amount of reducer by the way the paint runs off the mixing stick ( I use a flat piece of 16 gauge that I have sanded shiney) which is usually less then called for.

    Hope all of this helps.

    Torchie

    #54881

    CadillacRob86
    Participant

    Thank you for your help guys! I appreciate all the input.  All food for thought.

    #54885

    Tony
    Participant

    I love paint talk.

    And…Saturday night we had dinner at my son’s girlfriends house (i.e. the parents.) I didn’t really want to go because they’re golf nuts, and well, I don’t really want to meet his girlfriends parents, BUT he does own a automotive paint distribution company (Standox, Spies Hecker ,Axalta stuff) AND they have lacquer. I want lacquer. So naturally, I was nice.

    I know this has nothing to do with the OP question.

    #54887

    Torchie
    Participant

    I love paint talk. And…Saturday night we had dinner at my son’s girlfriends house (i.e. the parents.) I didn’t really want to go because they’re golf nuts, and well, I don’t really want to meet his girlfriends parents, BUT he does own a automotive paint distribution company (Standox, Spies Hecker ,Axalta stuff) AND they have lacquer. I want lacquer. So naturally, I was nice. I know this has nothing to do with the OP question.

     

    LOL. Well Tony. As a father with two daughters, I have scared off more boyfriends and their parents then a Preacher with a shotgun and none of them had lacquer. Although one has a 60’s Ford convertible that they want me to work on……

    Torchie

    #54910

    CadillacRob86
    Participant

    I should throw in, I work doing restoration stuff at a place that is mainly a detail shop and modern day collision work.  The owner, who also has a bunch of old cars, felt pretty strongly about base/clear giving a superior finish.  He said single stage I’ll be buffing it out all the time.

    #54912

    Mr. Kool
    Participant

    My two cents as a pro car painter.  Base/clear will shine longer. Single stage especially red and yellow dull quickly.

    Single stage is cheaper but maybe more difficult to apply for a non pro painter. Less paint and it looks bad. Too much paint and you risk runs. Runs that will certainly change in color as all pigments tend to go in the run, certainly no way too to sand and  buff them. They will go flat but not the same color.

    Painting a car can easily become a nightmare for a beginner.

    You have to be sure of your skills or maybe ask a friend who is a painter. Paint is expensive, your caddy is a big car. Lot of paint and lot of work. Think about it.  Hope you understand  my school English. If you need more just ask. I don’t pretend to know everything but painting cars for about25 years, I know some tips about it.

    #54913

    Ian Gibbons
    Participant

    My two cents as a pro car painter. Base/clear will shine longer. Single stage especially red and yellow dull quickly. Single stage is cheaper but maybe more difficult to apply for a non pro painter. Less paint and it looks bad. Too much paint and you risk runs. Runs that will certainly change in color as all pigments tend to go in the run, certainly no way too to sand and buff them. They will go flat but not the same color. Painting a car can easily become a nightmare for a beginner. You have to be sure of your skills or maybe ask a friend who is a painter. Paint is expensive, your caddy is a big car. Lot of paint and lot of work. Think about it. Hope you understand my school English. If you need more just ask. I don’t pretend to know everything but painting cars for about25 years, I know some tips about it.

     

    I am not a pro painter but in my limited experience I have had the exact opposite experience when dealing with non metallic colours. Runs in base coat are not fun to try and fix and I have never had a run in a single stage solid colour show once cut down and sanded. Also if not spraying in a booth environment BC/CC give you twice the chance of getting stuff in your paint and if you miss seeing it in your base before clearing there is no getting it out. For most of us these are not daily driven cars so the longevity factor is not even comparable to what is required for a daily driver in a collision shop environment.

    #54914

    I’m going to stir the (paint) pot a bit more.

    Rob, be aware that yellow does not cover well, so a uniform & light coloured base will help immensely.  I’m not a painter, but I have painted three of my cars over the years, one of which was a Sikkens base clear in a yellow gold.  When asked about the poor coverage of yellow, the rep. assured me that although I used their tan primer and touched up areas with their chromium spot coverage the base would cover – NOT!!  It looked like a giraffe!  He was fired before I got back to the supplier to confront him!  I should have gone with my gut..

    As for the type of paint to use, I own a car that was painted in lacquer 30 years ago (garage kept).  I rubbed it out myself (huge, huge job) and the climate here has not been kind to it, but it still shines!  Also, I have painted two cars in the family garage with (acrylic) enamel which held up in all weather for many years.  Another I had that was done by a shop – again in acrylic enamel looked as good as the day it was painted when I sold it twelve years later.  Two of the cars I have currently are base clear with one done in water-borne and they both look great as well.  I think the common denominator with all of my cars has been proper care (mostly keeping them clean in all weather as I dislike waxing – it’s a lazy thing) and sheltered storage.  If I were to paint another myself at home I would go right back to a single stage enamel as it covers well and shines right from the get-go.

    Did I help!!??!!   😀

     

    Dave

    Jus' creepin' along..

    #54922

    Jack Ripper
    Participant

    Let put in my experience that I had. I can do all that is necessary to build a car, from frame to upholstery. NOT PAINT. Not even primer comes out well. (Don’t ask. I don’t know why.) I took my Buick to a painter here in Florida when I moved here. It just had primer and I wanted a good seal. I wanted base -clear with a satin finish. Long story short he used the wrong flattening agent in the clear. The paint wouldn’t harden. He wound up doing a repaint but with SEM after I stripped the bad paint off at home. He blamed the supplier but I think he just tried to cheap out on the job. My point is whether you do it or have it done make sure you have the right products to do the job. I had to call the paint company tech line to find out it was wrong. Good luck on your project.

    #54938

    CadillacRob86
    Participant

    Thanks guys.  Seems like no matter what option I go with, it’s all pricey.  The one particularly appealing point my boss made was that you can bury the base with several coats of clear.  Enough to make it look very deep.  I’ll keep you posted.  Thanks again

    #54942

    kustomland
    Participant

    Rob,

    In the 1950’s with any single stage you were able to leaved the ENAMEL for a flash time of 40 mins and then you were able to spray a clear coat over it……This was in fact the 1950’s version of ” BASE COAT CLEAR ”

    Just like building cars there was era and stages and paint advanced….. DUCO CAME OUT IN THE 50’s  ” DULON” came out in the late 60’s , There is a difference……….

    All day long you can talk about paint and the eras…… YOUR BUILD falls in the period of when several different paint systems came out…. 3 to be exact……

    Now if you paint it base BASE COAT IT WILL LOOK TO SHINEY…!!! The con is it wont be period correct and will look awesome to people who don’t know or don’t care…It will also be easy to fix when you get damage/ It will be easy to paint , You can make a mistake on the base give it 5 mins and you can wet sand it with 800 wet and dry and re paint the are you made a mistake on/ You can run the holey bageezers out of the clear and still wet sand all your runs out…

    The CON…. It will look not correct …….

     

    Single stage has many terms because several paint systems are called single stage” DUCO”  /  ” DULON” / ” LUCITE ” / FULL CRYLL EMANEL ” / ” ACRYLIC EMANEL ” / ” URATHANE ENAMEL” /

    SO WITCH ONE DO YOU WANT…????

    URATHANE ENAMEL is the strongest because its made of polymer plastic and takes a hardener and is very scratch resistant…..

    What you are looking for with the ENAMEL is that ” VERY CREAMY ” LOOK …… That enamels gives, for example in an over cast day a single stage sea foam Green correct for a 1957 Chevrolet will look like a bright neon light….. The Pascale kolor stands out very bright and looks creamy….!! You will not get this effect on a BASE COAT CLEAR COAT PAINT JOB…….

    So with your comment about the more clear the more deper it will look is in fact INCORRECT…This is only correct when you paint KANDY’S and old skool LAQUER….

    Now Du Pont that now is called AXULTA  still sells 696S CLEAR , It is what you call a UNIVERSALE CLEAR and can be painted over ENAMELS…… But is can only be painted over 2 brands of paint !!!! DuPont / AXULTA / HOUSE OF KOLOR…..

    You can spray any Du Pont / AXULTA clear including there best high end clear over any OF Du Ponts / AXULTA paint….And HOUSE OF KOLOR.

    The only other paint you can spray this clear over the top of enamel is any ” VALSPAR ” Enamel….

    WHY YOU ASK…..??????

    Because HOUSE OF KOLOR AND Du Pont / AXULTA were built with the same science formula and are interchangeable. NO OTHER PAINT SYSTEM DOES THIS…..

    YOU CAN NOT SPARY DEE BEERS/ AND SPICE HECKERS/ SICKENS / CROMAX / P.P.G. ect ect…..!! They are different paint systems….And built with difference science formula’s….

    This is why Du Pont had the ” miracle of science  ” On all there cans of paint….

    Also yellow does cover well………!!! I paint a 1958 CAMEO Chevrolet ex OAKLAND ROADSHOW TRUCK in a kustom made yellow starting with a 1955 Chevrolet yellow with more white and red in it………….

    You can manipulate ENAMEL to look 1 million times better then base coat…..The enamel paint job I did on the CAMEO was so crystal flat people swore it was base coat / clear coat….When it was displayed …. It was not…

    It was never even wet sanded and buffed it was straight off my ” SATA 3000″

    The reason why a SATA 3000 is such a amazing paint gun is you can spray paint at 5 pounds of pressure and blend 2 different kolors into each other and not see were each kolor begins…..!!!

    This helps when spraying Enamel because you can manipulate the paint to flow how you want it to, Even by heating the paint can in boiling water and warming it up to flow better also….

    The technique is to let the ENAMEL dry on its own and not bake it…..!!! It takes longer between coats… The reason why they bake it is to speed the drying time that’s is all…..!!!

    You spray your first coat and make the pattern you will spray , I.E edgers and odd angles first….Once you have your spray pattern….. Then you just do PISS coast and let it tac as it is sticky…

    Continue to look at the curves and shadows and corners and make sure you did not miss anything after every coat with a bright light, I use the light off the scanning eye tool for matching kolors , its is pure white and will blind you if you look into it directly………..

    Then build your coats in between  and if it is in a hot area just give less time….In SALINAS CALIFORNIA it is always over cast and cold so I give 40 mins …..

    When you have got to your last coat make it wet and make sure the areas you can not get too are wet so there is no orange peel….

    Nothing worse then seeing a ENAMEL paint job and there is orange peel every were they could not sand and buff….Looks ugly and is unprofessional….

    Now on you last coat ADD straight fast dry thinner and some hardener after leaving the paint to tack off, Spray the straight fast dry thinner and hardener and melt the ENAMEL and you will see it become wet again and want to run…………. BUT DONT RUN  IT …..!! Get it to the brink off running……….!!

    The fast dry thinner will evaporate and the hardener will set if off like  ” CRYSTAL KANDY ” Now if you want to clear  it give it another 1 hour flash and spray the clear ………..

    Now in the 1950’s the reason why the clear was invented for the ENAMEL was this was the fist stage of the era of KANDY and flake……. Also during the 1950’s a lot of cars had  there dash’s painted in metallic.

    The clear was invented for sparing over metallic enamels…….

    HOUSE OF KOLOR  science system was made to mimic Du Pont but give more kolors….

    Also HOUSE OF KOLOR CLEAR is compatible with Du Pont / AXULTA paints as it is a UNIVERSIAL clear….

    In 2010 HOUSE OF KOLOR banned and discontinued there ” SUN SCREEN CLEAR ” As it did not meet E.P.A standards for V.O.C content….

    Here are some photos of a 1925 INDIAN PRINCE MOTORCYCLE I painted last week …

    I used ” VALSPAR ” ACRYLIC ENAMEL  that was “AIR DRY ” I then gave it a flash time of 40 mins and sprayed Du Pont 696’S CLAER OVER THE TOP……..

    WHY DID I DO THIS …. Because this was replicating the INDIAN PAINT FROM 1925 instead of painting it in DULUX OIL BASED ENAMEL…… It had the same finish and shine and look….

    If you look at the INDIAN you can see the First coast of red are kind of dull as the Enamel was semi shiny  , This could of been left just like this, Once the clear was painted over the top it gave it the correct finish to replicate the original oil based DULUX INDIAN PAINT. In 1929 Du Pont took over INDIAN and this is why when you see the 1938 BIG CHIFES INDIANS they have crazy elaborate paint schemes with wonderful TU- TONE.

    This is what the finished look a  1925 Indian done correctly should look like…..

    Now oil based ENAMEL is another story and technique………!!!! And different again…..!!!

    Hope this helps

    KUSTOMLAND……

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    #54962

    kustomland
    Participant

    Rob and others on the C.C.C,

    10 years ago HOUSE OF KOLOR / VALSPAR turned to Australia to look at there paint systems, Because Australia is the closest to the sun and Australia homes and cars are exposed to massive U.V.B radiation light…..

    HOSE OF KOLOR turned to the company called ” WATTYL” Who make house paint to protect homes….

    WATTYL made an etch primer that was never seen before with ZINK PHOSPAHATE….. The etch is so strong because of its formula you can srpay it on anything and the sun will not damage it or it wont rust……

    HOUSE OF KOLOR bought them out and added it to there line of paint….. I once did a test and sand blasted a old car body and left it in the sun for 5 years and it even had water in the car body….IT NEVER RUSTED…!!!!

    Every thin I paint has HOUSE OF KOLOR / VALSPAR WATTYLE ETCH PRIMER. It can be thinned down to water and when you spray it has the property to be so thin it will not change the a mount of paint mills… It what I call a GHOST layer, you don’t even know its there ……. All the INDIANS I built have this to protect there paint from oxidizing bronze welds on the frames from joining the castings to the tube steel……..It also protects the paint from the inside opposed from clear protecting paint from the out side ……

    Hope this helps…..

    $80 A CAN

    KUSTOMLAND

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