Ayala "Green Gold" Paint: My search

[Ian Gibbons]

Thanks Manuel! I really appreciate the information. It took about 2 seconds to Google the powder as Crescent Bronze company has it for sale online. Do you think they added any of the powder to the lime gold lacquer or just to the clear for a base coat?

The biggest problem I have is that I have no idea what the original color looked like which was why I was hoping to track down the paint code from Rik’s picture so I could at least get a sample to guide me.

Thanks again!!

[Manuel Reyes]

Hi Ian,

There was no paint code on those early lacquer paint custom colors.

Yes, a little gold powder would be added to the lime gold toner.
Not too much though, so it didn’t get muddy looking.

When I sprayed a color like that I put an ample amount in the clear for the “base coat”.
Usually 3 coats of base was adequate.
Then a little powder with the toner and a little clear.
As I mentioned in my last e-mail, as I approached the final coats I would increase
the amount of clear in the lime gold mixture, more thinner and follow up with
2 or 3 or 4 coats of just clear, keeping it wet for decent flow out.

I would experiment spraying this concoction on a test panel till I got the look.

I had no other samples to refer to, but almost all lime green toners looked the same.
Some were more cleaner than others and would spray out great looking.

The secret is the gold powder in clear, a little in the color coats and plain clear over the
final color coats. Experiment, experiment till you get that great looking color.

I’m almost positive that modern micas instead of the gold powder won’t get that older look.

Feel free to contact me again for any further info.

Good luck again.

Manuel Reyes

[Ian Gibbons]

Thanks again Manuel. I really appreciate you taking the time to describe the procedure and materials to use. I may now be a bit intimidated by the process but it is super cool to find out how it was done back then. 😀

The color code I was referring to was one that the current owner of the Wally Welch supposedly has for a modern paint code that matches the original color that they uncovered during the restoration. I know it would not have the same depth and look of the original lacquer paint but I was hoping it might at least give me an idea of what the color was like.

[PalleJ]

Ian..Thanks for bringing this subject up! i need to do some investigations myself very soon for the Jack Stewart Ford!
i did found some bronze powders..but over here we have the same problem finding the rigth supliers when is comes to these old Laquers. i know its not easy to have anyone ship the color over the pond!
and Manuel..thanks for ‘clearing’ the paint method. i think i will try this using modern paint, just to get the feeling
heres a pics of the Stewart car taken in 1951-52
and i have to say that it looks very deep, so no doubt the method your refferring to, is used here! thanks

i wish you all a happy new year!

-Palle

[Manuel Reyes]

Hi Ian and Palle,

For your information on lacquer paint supplier try this place –
http://www.tcpglobal.com
On their home page click “Auto Paint” in their header,
scroll to “Restoration Shop” where they’ll advertise Acrylic Lacquer products.
Most likely they can’t ship by air, but it’s worth a try to ask them
how you can get the materials.
They are very helpful. Their phone number is on their home page.
Also, Crescent Bronze Company still offers #252 Extra Brilliant Rich Gold (metallic powder)
Long ago I found this powder information in a Candy Apple Paint article by George Barris.
It’s all I ever used, looked great. I still have a little of it after all these years.
Happy New Year.

Manuel Reyes

[Ian Gibbons]

Thanks for the link Manuel. I actually sent TCP an email just before Christmas to ask about the availability of a lime gold lacquer as it is not on their list of standard colors and I will report back with their reply.

I have a feeling it will be easier for me to get the product that Palle as TCP will ship to me here in Canada as I have a friend who has had them ship product to him up here. I did find the powder as well. It looks like it sells for about $45 a pound. Any idea how much one might use?

Happy New Year to you as well!

Ian

[Rik Hoving]

Excellent information Manuel, it makes those old paint jobs come alive in front of my eyes. And I can see the old paint legends as Gil Ayala, George Cerny and George Barris experiment in their workshops to create these mile deep paint jobs.

In the past I had found another source for the gold powders that were used back in the 1950’s. The name Venus Martin No. 41 Gold powder had popped up in many old magazine articles and in some of the more recent books about Custom Cars. I found that the same powder was still being made and sold by the Gold Leaf and Metallic Powders Company. This company offers the Venus Martin No. 41 and many other shades of gold and silver powders.

Enjoy the beauty of Customizing

[PalleJ]

cool stuff! its funny this paint talk, can make you fell like working on you car!…

thanks
-palle

[Manuel Reyes]

Hi Ian,
The way I see it, if TCP can provide acrylic lacquer colors, then they must have toners.
Wether they call it lime gold or lime green toner, they would need that to make some colors.
Bottom line, you need toner. I’ll look in my stash to see if I have any left.
I used to buy the powders in (I think) 5 pound cans, since I used it often and the store where
I bought it was about 40 miles away.
When used for an under base I put enough in so I could usually spray 3 coats to get a even
and opaque base. If I can remember properly, if too much powder is put in the clear, it doesn’t
strain properly, a lot left in the strainer. Also, too much powder in the clear could make the base
uneven or blotchy. You want it even. Can’t say how much powder to put in, experiment with 1/2 pint
mixtures till you get even base in 3 coats. Adjust amount till you get it right, then you have an approximate
fot 1 quart mixtures. I mixed one quart quantities as I went along, cause the powder could settle and
you’d have to really stir it up good. Wasted time.
I thinned enough clear to spray 3 coats then added my powder after / before next coat. You want to
keep the lacquer wet enough so it doesn’t dry to fast between coats.
One more thing, if gold base dries before you spray the color coats, then don’t touch the gold with your fingers,
since it can look tarnished from your body oils.
If you have to leave it overnight, then spray 1 coat of wet clear over it. That should protect the base.
Hope this helps.
Happy New Year.

Manuel

[Manuel Reyes]

Hi Rik,

Thanks for the info on the Venus brand powders. I forgot about that company, it was long ago.
I used the Venus powders to make Gold Striping paint since they were finer, they were really
like powder, not as granular as the Crescent powders I was using for spraying. I can’t remember
if they had coarser powders that could be used to get the really nice metallic look in the
lacquer paint jobs. Crescent really still has a wide range of powders. They had a real nice
silver powder that I used to spray under white pearl to get a Platinum Pearl color.
I found an old 1 pound can of the gold, it’s half full right now. I’ll bet that can is over
30 years old, been sealed all that time.
Keep up the good work on your web site, it’s a killer.
Happy New Year.

Manuel

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[Ian Gibbons]

Thanks again Manuel. I was more asking on the overall amount I might need as it will probably cost me as much to ship as the product is worth so I might as well order it all at once. Do you think a pound would be enough?

[Manuel Reyes]

Hi Ian,

I would get at least 2 to 3 pounds. That should be plenty for a paint job. 2 pounds minimum.
You probably could have a little left over, it won’t go to waste, just mix what you need
at the time of spraying.
I’ll look to see if I have any lime gold toner left, maybe I can get it to you somehow.
Happy to help.
Manuel

[Rik Hoving]

Manuel Reyes wrote:

Hi Rik,

Thanks for the info on the Venus brand powders. I forgot about that company, it was long ago.
I used the Venus powders to make Gold Striping paint since they were finer, they were really
like powder, not as granular as the Crescent powders I was using for spraying. I can’t remember
if they had coarser powders that could be used to get the really nice metallic look in the
lacquer paint jobs.

Manuel

I know that Johnny Jarzen used the Venus gold powder on his 1954 Lincoln. He wanted his Lincoln to be painted in a color that looked very much like the Barris Bettancourt Mercury color. I have seen the paint up close, and I really liked the look of it, but I only saw it indoors, never outside in the bright sun. So I have no idea how that looked. But according what Johnny said and the photos I have seen it looked very nice with subtile sparkling.

I copied this from an email I got from Johnny when I asked him how the powder was used. “The gold powder was added to the base. He just added it till he thought it was enough which was basically a table spoon full.”

Enjoy the beauty of Customizing

[Rik Hoving]

Here is another photo showing the inside of the bottle of Venus Martin Gold powder.

Enjoy the beauty of Customizing

[Ian Gibbons]

Thanks for the additional info Rik. I remember some of this info in the Kustoms Illustrated article on Johnny’s car. Did he use a Basecoat Clearcoat paint system for his car or was it done in lacquer? I wonder how well using some of these products in modern binders/clears would work and look?

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